”Let’s go camping!” I used to love hearing that phrase,love the outdoors. But if you came here thinking you’ve found the newest blog on tent popping -so sorry. 
A little backround for the uninformed.Harold Camping comes from a Dutch Reformed backround and was in the construction industry(owner of Camping Construction) before co-founding Family Stations, Inc. in 1958,a non-profit world-wide radio ministry better known as Family Radio.He’s president/general manager and has devoted himself to full-time unpaid ministry after leaving his business some years ago and has hosted a call-in program “Open Forum” since 1961(you do have to admire the dedication). And it is this program which has become his primary “soap box” to spew abberrent teachings. To be fair, there was a time when Mr. Camping fell within the pale of orthodoxy,in Reformed school of thought, but began to stray off the reservation with his hyper-allegorical method of interpreting Scripture-with a dash of numerology thrown in. This method is purely subjective, given to the whims and mood of what one may “see” in a passage at the moment, and only limited to ones imagination. It is this very method that has produced his “The church age has ended”-(aka-”Depart Out Doctrine”-that one should leave his/her church because God is essentially through with the church ,circa 1988) , his previous book ”1994?”(that Christ would return in the fall of 1994) and current “Time Has an End”-his “magnum opus”,if you will,with revised calculations now pointing to a 2011 return of our Lord (in the fall,of course). (Where’s Mr. Rodger’s when you need’em-” Can you say False Prophet?!”). In fairness-as in 1994? Mr. Camping gives himself some wiggle room in this statement:
WITH NO APOLOGIES, IT IS THE INTENT OF THIS BOOK TO WARN AS MANY PEOPLE AS POSSIBLE ABOUT THE ABUNDANT BIBLICAL EVIDENCE THAT THE END OF THE WORLD IS ALMOST HERE. THE END OF THE WORLD IS THAT AWESOME AND TERRIBLE MOMENT WHEN JESUS CHRIST, THE SUPREME RULER OF MANKIND, WILL COMPLETE THE JUDGMENT PROCESS THAT BEGAN IN THE GARDEN OF EDEN WHEN ADAM AND EVE DISOBEYED GOD. (From We Are Almost There!-italics added).
He’s done it! He’s boxed himself in,painted himself into the proverbial corner!-the end of the world is almost here…. for him being 2011. Mr. Camping,it seems , has no where to go after this one-if, Lord willing, he out lives this “prophecy”( as of this writing he’s 86 years old).
To make this short -(and leaving the Church and annihilation for another post)- again ,Mr. Camping is lost in the deep, dark forest off the beaten path forging ahead on his own to oblivion. It would do well those who tag along behind him to take heed to the following verses:
“But of that day and hour no one knows, no,not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only” -Matt.24:36(NKJV)
“Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor hour in which the Son of Man is coming” Matt. 25:13(NKJV)
“And He said: “Take heed that you not be deceived. For many,will come in my name, saying’I am He’, and, ‘ The time has drawn near.’ Therefore do not go after them.” Luke 21:8 (Bold added,NKJV)
“For ye suffer fools gladly, seeing ye yourselves are wise. For ye suffer, if a man bring you into bondage, if a man devour you, if a man take of you, if a man exalt himself, if a man smite you on the face.” 2Corinthians 11:19,20(KJV)
“For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.” 2Corinthians 11:13-15(KJV)
“Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.” 2Thess 2:3,4(KJV)
“For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.” Isaiah 14:13,14(KJV)
“A fool also is full of words: a man cannot tell what shall be; and what shall be after him, who can tell him? The labour of the foolish wearieth every one of them, because he knoweth not how to go to the city.” Ecclesiastes 10:14,15(KJV)
“The simple believeth every word: but the prudent man looketh well to his going.” Proverbs 14:15(KJV)
And with this I’ll end-BE A BEREAN!! “And this I say, lest any man should beguile you with enticing words.” Colossians 2:4
November 2, 2009 at 10:46 pm |
Wrong again on the part of Augustine!
The Gospel according to Mr. Camping says quote:
“all one can do is cry out to God for mercy daily, demonstrate an intense desire to study the bible, listen to Family Radio, not attend any “church” gathering, and look to and be prepared for 5/21/11 as the date for the Rapture and Judgement of the world, then MAY BE, JUST MAY BE God will decide to save you.”
These are Mr. Camping’s EXACT words, and he has restated this scores of times on Family Radio using various sentence structures.
So no, you are do NOT “believe because you are saved” according to Mr. Camping’s theology, because he has openly stated not only the above, but he has also openly stated that quote, “saving someone is entirely God’s business, and all one can do is cry out for mercy to God and may be, just may God will decide to save you.”
So with this said again, if you are following Camping theology (Mr. Autustine) how is it that you “believe because you are saved????”
Camping says quote, “no one knows if God is going to save them or not, IT IS HIS BUSINESS.” So, you can believe all you want to in God, and say that you believe because you are saved, but this is a direct contradiction to Mr. Camping’s theology.
Of course, you will state that I have misquoted Mr. Camping, go ahead, I know that I am posting his EXACT words, and others here will easily attest to this FACT, and also anyone here is free to call Mr. Camping any time, daily M-F on his Open Forum program, and tell him that you are a believer because you are saved (like you are suggesting), and see what he tells you.
Be sure to post here what he tells you.
November 3, 2009 at 12:14 am |
NO, it is ONLY evident that someone is NOT saved if they REJECT the blood atonement sacrafice of the Lord Jesus Christ after hearing it or reading it for themsleves. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God. That “Faith” is God generated and directed, it is centered on revealing the identity of Jesus Christ as God’s sacrifical lamb who takes away the sins of the world, and who alone overcame the power of death. It is possible for someone to not understand a lot of doctrine and be saved IF their Faith is in the person of J.C. under the Divine Inspirition of the Holy Spirit of God, and the individual internally received this revelation as coming from God, they believe in their heart that God raised J.C. from the dead for the remission of their sins, and subsequently openly confess Jesus Christ as Lord, all of which would not be possible for anyone to do and mean it, or for it to become a living reality to them internally, unless God Himself has revealed this individually to someone which would mean that they are among God’s elect. Faith in Jesus Christ alone is the immutable root of anyone’s salvation and gift of Eternal Life. Keep in mind that according to the N.T. bible, quote, “Yet at the same time many even among the Jewish leaders believed in Him (Jesus Christ), but because of the Pharisees they would NOT CONFESS their Faith for fear they would be put out of the synagogue; for they loved the praise from men MORE than praise from God.”(John 12:42-43). Oh yes, they had Faith, He came to them (many of them) in the form of the Holy Spirit and opened their eyes to the Heaven sent identity of Jesus Christ, God did indeed reveal his Son Jesus Christ’s identity to many of the Jewish leaders in the snagogue and purpose to them to be saved, but they remained in sin by not publically confessing Him as Lord. They were AFRAID of the consequences, they did not trust God with their lives regardless of what it might cost them. In this scripture, we see that salvation includes both the revelation of Christ which God Himself inspired, however salvation is not conferred until someone confesses openly with their mouth what is inside their heart. As the bible says, “out of the overflow one one’s heart, his mouth speaks” (Luke 6:45). Now, please don’t ask me what about someone who is mute? I’m not God, so I don’t know the answer to that. It’s the same thing as asking what if someone is both illiterate and deaf, are they condemed automatically for not being able to hear the Gospel of Jesus Christ or read? Only God knows the answers to these kind of questions, but I do know that if someone is among God’s elect, it doesn’t matter what their mental or physical condition is, God is still about to get Faith into them to save them. God is God, and man is man. God’s Power and abilities are without limit and totally transcend all human experience and collective knowledge.
November 3, 2009 at 9:44 am |
Ron K.
I think most Christians agree with almost all that you are saying.
To answer some of your points: God can save anyone including a baby in the womg, a deaf, dumb, and blind, and mentally retarted person, a person in a coma, etc. John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Spirit in his mother’s womb. If someone can hear, and speak, then they will confess with their mouth, and believe in their heart that Jesus is the Christ. We are commanded to believe in Jesus, everyone is to obey this and not try to figure out if they are one of God’s elect. *** When we bring the Gospel to others, we are to simply tell them they are sinners, and need to trust and Christ as their Saviour, we do not have to mention eletion ****** Anyone who truly genuinely believes, does so because God has drawn them to himself.
Also Ronk: Please understand that not everyone who listens to Mr Cmaping, and agrees with certain of his teachings, agree with everything he is teaching. Recently we found out that someone of the Family Radio Board of Directors does NOT believe in annihilation. Some Family Radio listenes believe in 2011, and churches are of Satan, not annihilation. Some listeners believe annihilation, and not some other things such as “Hope Your Are Saved”, etc. So when you listen to Mr Camping on the radio, and hear his multitude of heresies, AUGUSTINE may or may not agree totally with any of them.
You frustration should be focused toward Mr Camping and not Augustine. Mr Camping will have to answer to God Almighty for teaching all of these destructive heresies, because he does not listen to any one, and does not accept correction from any other person, including his own family, and other Family Radio staff members.
God Bless,
Jim B.
November 3, 2009 at 2:44 pm |
I asked Chris McCann this question and am waiting for his answer.
If God determined who he was going to save before we were created, wouldn’t that day be judgment day? What judgment is going to take place on May 21, 2011? Shouldn’t the day be called something other than judgment day? You can’t tell people that they are already judged and then tell them that they will be judged again. Either we were judged for salvation from the foundation of the world or we weren’t.
November 3, 2009 at 3:44 pm |
The only thing that is going to happen on 5/21/11 at the end of the day, or the following day, is Mr. Camping is going to pull out his slide rule, calculator, and moon calendar and begin doing the work of attempting to figure out a new date for the rapture, or he will say that God recently showed him that the Rapture was invisible and only the spirit of the believer went to heaven and their bodies will follow on 10/21/11, or that it will still happen sometime before the end of 2011, or he will come up with some other incredible new doctrine about something important that was suppose to happen in 2011 in general, just like he did with his 1994 prediction for the Rapture, i.e. 9/94, then he said it will still happen before the end of 1994, and of couse it didn’t, then when he saw that he was WRONG, he came up with the “revelation from God” that what actually happened in 1994 was the end of the Church age, how convenient! He absolutely had to be RIGHT about something of sensational biblical proportions regarding his 1994 prediction, and yet, he was still WRONG about that as well. The Chruch Age is NOT over, it will be soon, but not according to Mr. Camping’s predictions or his plans for the world.
November 3, 2009 at 4:07 pm |
Ruth Ann,
Chris McCann is an extreme Campingite as far as I know. Are you talking to him on the Yahoo Latter Rain site, or directly though email? I would not recommend wasting your time corresponding with him, he will give you a multitude of verses to prove his heretical view, like Mr Camping does.
May 21, 2011 is not Judgement Day. Judgement Day will be the very last day of the earth’s existence when the Lord returns and gathers his people, and judges the unsaved. The world will not end in 2011.
Are you struggling with the doctrine of election or pre-destination, then we could talk about that here.
God Bless,
Jim B.
jimbbbbb@gmail.com
November 3, 2009 at 6:04 pm |
Don’t they teach that we are judged from the foundation of the earth whether we will be saved or not? What judgment will be executed on the last day?
November 3, 2009 at 7:06 pm |
That would be the “Judgement of Righteousness” unto Eternal Life.
http://www.faithalone.org/news/y1989/89may1.html
Excerpt from above link:
This judgment for all Church age believers will take place immediately after the Rapture of the Church at the Bema or Judgment Seat of Christ (Rom 14:10; 1 Cor 3:10-4:5; 2 Cor 5:10-14). The end result of this evaluation of the believer’s God directed “works” will be the bestowal or denial of special rewards. Here we see that eternal life is a seperate issue relative to the reward for “works” which according to other authors, is, “the fruit of our salvation, not the root of our salvation”
November 3, 2009 at 9:22 pm |
I understand Ruth Ann’s question. I would agree that “Judgment Day” is a misnomer. An example can be when a judge passes a sentence of execution on a murderer. It is more proper to say the judgment day was the day the judge passed the sentence. The second phase of that is when the prisoner lives as a condemned man. The third part is the execution.
For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? -1Peter 4:17
So since God elected us from the foundation of the world (before linear time was created), and paid the cost of redeeming then, “judgment day” could be considered every day in the life of an unsaved person.
November 3, 2009 at 9:29 pm |
JimB,
You just threw us a curve ball there. You told Ruth Ann not to waste her time corresponding with someone because you said he’ll use a multitude of verses to prove his view. Isn’t that what we’re supposed to do? Isn’t that what you’re doing? Did I read too much into that…or not enough?
November 3, 2009 at 10:01 pm |
How can every day be considered judgment day for the unsaved? You say that they are condemned and nothing will change that. Doesn’t Mr. Camping teach that they have already received their punishment – being forever separated from God. If they are separated from the day that they are born, they have been judged and have received their punishment. So what judgment begins with the house of God?
November 4, 2009 at 12:53 am |
I see we had a good day here-alot of “subplots”. One of which is the ongoing Arminianism vs. Calvinism(or “Hyper”-Calvinism). And Augustine,Ron K and Ruth Ann in their last posts raise some interesting(if seemingly conflicting) points,Ruth Ann in particular(and yes,that’s right-”eternal torment”,hell, is being seperated eternally from God). But much said is also a matter of perspective,specifically God’s perspective, and Augustine reveals a key in “linear time”(or really the absence of it).
Being God is not constrained by physical time,He knows “eternity future”(future ,that is,from our perspective) and “knows” all who will be with Him in glory,because,well, He’s there with them. But He also knew this in “eternity past”,didn’t He (being He’s the Alpha and Omega)?
I’m going to muddy the waters with a little academic exercise- When a person dies,when is his soul present in eternity(from our perspective) for judgment? Is he “Absent from the body and present with the Lord”(in his “soul”)? Or is one just present in consciousness – incorporeal,to be united with soul and body at “later dates”? Or does one “wait” for the consummation of time ,in the grave(soul sleep)? And if one is a believer in “annihilation”,when would(could?) that occur in any of these instances?
I really could have started a new thread with this one but I’ll leave it at this for now. Carry on…….
November 4, 2009 at 8:05 am |
I personally don’t have any first hand knowledge of what happens after death. I know that the accounts of the followers of Jesus say that Jesus was resurrected. Eternal life was never promised before Jesus came to the earth. I read jewish teaching about eternal life and they would agree that eternal life is not taught in their scriptures. So if Jesus was the perfect example of how God wants us to live our lives on earth, his death also becomes the example of what happens to those who fully trust God. When you read Matthew 5-7, it starts by saying that Jesus began to teach them. What did he teach them? He taught them how we are to live. He said that if we want to be forgiven, we must forgive. If you believe that Jesus was sent to earth as the annointed one, you will listen to what he said.
Luke 10 25And behold, a lawyer stood up to put him to the test, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” 26He said to him, “What is written in the Law? How do you read it?” 27And he answered, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself.” 28And he said to him, “You have answered correctly; do this, and you will live.”
That is pretty straight forward. So I choose to live my life as God has called us to live. If I worry about what man thinks I should believe, I take my eyes off of what Jesus taught. There is only one way to God and that is through the way that Jesus taught. His way is truth and life. If I don’t love my neighbor, I am telling Jesus that I really don’t believe what He said. The truth is so simple, yet the hardest thing for people to truly believe. Man has done a marvelous job of taking everyone’s eyes off of the truth.
November 4, 2009 at 9:58 am |
I think Ruth Ann’s referencing of Luke 10 is excellent and is a pivot point of disagreement.
“You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself…do this, and you will live.” It sounds like we hear the Gospel, agree with it, and take action to become saved.
Isolate this verse, and it seems to say “do this, and salvation will happen”. But in light of Scripture, we know a dead soul can’t decide to love God anymore than a dead Lazarus could “decide” to answer Jesus’ command to exit the grave. God has to resurrect the soul first in order for it to respond. A living soul is a saved soul reconciled to God. The very nature of a saved soul is to love God unconditionally.
So if God has saved us, then we love in accordance with Luke 10, and we shall live.
Here is the problem. When folks “decide” to love God according to this scripture, if they are unsaved, they are loving the version of God they are comfortable with, and therein lies the birth of mulitple Gospel versions that we see today. Man re-creates God in his own image. These are honest folks whom we love dearly and who love us, but if God did not quicken their souls, then they are content with “their” God. They have their reward…a life here on earth.
Senecus, I love your questions and I look forward to addressing them soon.
November 4, 2009 at 12:10 pm |
I thought you would,Augustine,look forward to it……
November 4, 2009 at 10:05 am |
Saying everyday could be considered judgment day for the unsaved is my own figure of speech. I said “could be” because it would be from a paricular point of view.
Your original question of “what judgment day will take place on 5/21/11″, it’s not so much that a “judgment” will happen that day. It is that the event described in the Bible that we call the rapture will occur on that day, and the beginning of the final five months, which will be the time of terrors on earth. Some can characterize that as part of God’s judgment, some might not. Doesn’t matter what you call it, really.
November 4, 2009 at 11:08 am |
No, the very nature of a “saved soul” is that God loves the sinner unconditionally and his Grace has been extended to whosoever He has elected by his Divine will, thereby enabling the sinner to respond to His Love, which in no way means that they walk a perfect life before God. This is what one “working out one’s salvation with fear and trembling” is all about.
Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God. If the unsaved person is “hearing the Word of God” and they are among God’s elect, they will respond to the call of salvation all of which is the work of the Holy Spirit, i.e. “it’s not according to the will or desire of man, but the Mercy of God.” (Romans 9:16)
November 4, 2009 at 11:13 am |
Augustine,
My point to Ruth Ann, was not to correspond with someone who will give a multitude of verses, with twisting and spiritualizing, to make them say things not are not scriptural, like the world ending in 2011, and “5 months of terror” after the rapture. I must warn any person to stay away from cult leaders like Mr Camping and anyone who agrees with any of his heresies. The Bible commands me to warn others to stay away from false teachers who twist the Bible to their own destruction, and have been clearly proven to be a false prophet in the past, like in 1994. Once proven a false prophet, we are not to consider any other predictions from them.
Here is what God says:
Deut 18:
20 But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in My name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die.’ 21 And if you say in your heart, ‘How shall we know the word which the LORD has not spoken?’— 22 when a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the thing does not happen or come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him”.
We are not to be afraid of any of the heresies that Mr Camping teaches, including “all churches are of satan”, “world will end in 2011″, “annihilation like the Jehovah’s Witnesses Cult teaches”, “Hope you are Saved”, and many other false teachings.
God Bless,
Jim B.
jimbbbbb@gmail.com
November 4, 2009 at 1:26 pm |
Augustine -
The point being, all I hear is judgment day is May 21, 2011. There are bumper stickers, t-shirts, car wrappings, tracts, etc that all say Judgment Day, May 21, 2011. So you put in people’s mind that on that day God is going to judge people. If you are elect, God will rapture you to heaven, if you aren’t you will endure the wrath of God. But in reality, God has made that judgment already and your fate is sealed. So why not preach it that way? Your fate is sealed, on May 21, 2011, you too will find out who God chose. It doesn’t generate the same fear that preaching a judgment does. And fear is the key to the message. You want to play on everyone’s deep secrets that they hold in their heart of things that they don’t want revealed. I had to think of a quote that addresses this issue clearly.
In order to rally people, governments need enemies. They want us to be afraid, to hate, so we will rally behind them. And if they do not have a real enemy, they will invent one in order to mobilize us.
Thich Nhat Hanh
Vietnamese Buddhist Monk, Author
Mr. Camping has done this with all those who listen to him. He has created the enemy to be the “corporate church”. He tells everyone daily how the church is our enemy, that Satan is ruling there. He instills fear that you might not be elect if you don’t leave the church and proclaim his teachings. What a sad way to be a leader.
November 5, 2009 at 9:52 am |
Very insightful,Ruth Ann (Now 2011 car wraps!? I’ve yet to see that…..)
November 4, 2009 at 2:14 pm |
Here is the question that I would pose to anyone who wants to answer. During the timeframe of the Old Testament, would there be any argument that God’s chosen or elected people were the Israelites? If they were his chosen people, did they all follow God? Were they instructed by Joshua to choose who they were going to follow and trust?
November 4, 2009 at 11:31 pm |
I’m very much agreed with much of what Ruth Ann and Ron K posted. I agree with Ruth Ann on how the message of 5/21/11 is communicated. I’m finding most believers of this doctrine…”Campingites” maybe?…disagree with me on many, many things. I recently received quite a backlash from some of them for disagreeing on wearing the 5/21/11 t-shirts.
On Ruth Ann’s point of fear being a tool used to manipulate people in matters of faith, I believe this is true as I pointed out in a previous post. Using fear of eternal torment has been used to mandate service, money, and power to church entities for hundreds of years of our history. We now see that doctine is false if we go by Scripture only, let Scripture interpret itself, and not believe something out of habit.
To say Camping is manipulating through fear is misleading. Those on this forum are teaching the fearful doctrine of unsaved souls being eternal, contrary to the Biblical teaching that they are dead. Camping is saying this is not the case.
How is what Camping teaches more fear-mongering than teaching eternal torment of all unsaved men, women, and children, despite the Bible telling us implicitly that the unsaved have lost eternal life, not kept it in another place.
JimB, I’ll address Deuteronomy in my next post.
November 5, 2009 at 10:21 am |
I think we could agree that the “2011 Doctrine” has reached the level of sensationalism.
I believe you answer your own question on teaching/manipulation-”How is what Camping teaches more fear-mongering…..”. One could say that the fear of “2011 Doctrine” has “been used to mandate service, money, and power” for Family Radio. True, not in the same magnitude as had say the Inquisition for the Catholic church and not as overtly,but as Ruth Ann points out in her next post,there are those Campingites who feel they are doing the work of Family Radio(Mr. Camping)by shouting the date,stuffing a tract in ones face, and brow beat you if you don’t immediately agree with their “Pontiff’s” dire prediction. Very reminiscent of “1994″.
November 5, 2009 at 8:35 am |
Augustine -
You didn’t address that Mr. Camping has made the corporate church the enemy. I had to think about Paul writing to the Romans and trying to quell the same mindset about the law. They were making the law the enemy. The law was never the enemy, people’s unwillingness to trust God was the enemy and it still is. So how do we live to show people that we trust in God’s ways? By saying that God really doesn’t want us to care about each other in a real way. God only wants us to proclaim a date, throw a tract at someone and then condemn them if they don’t agree with you.
November 5, 2009 at 10:27 am |
Yes,Ruth Ann,where’s the love of Christ in all they do?
“By saying that God really doesn’t want us to care about each other in a real way. God only wants us to proclaim a date, throw a tract at someone and then condemn them if they don’t agree with you.”
Reminiscent of what I witnessed in 1994.
November 5, 2009 at 10:22 am |
We should fear God alone, he is a just and a loving God. We should not fear any man, teacher, church, satan, etc.
God’s justice demands punishment for the Devil and the unsaved. Let us have the Bible speak for itself, without any twisting or spiritualizing. Let us see if we should fear God, and his most Holy Justice, and wrath. Remember this is the Bible and not a Church Creed or man-made doctrine.
Luke 12:
4 And I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. 5 But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear Him who, after He has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I say to you, fear Him!
Luke 16:
19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father’s house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
These are the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and this does not sound like annihilation to me.
God Bless,
Jim B.
November 5, 2009 at 10:59 am |
“We should fear God alone, he is a just and a loving God. We should not fear any man, teacher, church, satan, etc.”
Well said ,Jim. Fear God,and I’ll add just be wary of the others.
As you probably know there are those “across the aisle” that will say Luke 16:19-31 is just a parable, that Jesus only wanted to illustrate the hardness of mens hearts not believing one should they rise from the dead(ignoring Where the rich man was)or other myriad explanations. Yet,Jesus never addressed that this was a parable,as he did with others. And even if it were,He always drew from the listeners experience and things common and accepted (or at least known of),things they would be aquainted with. Not something esoteric.
November 5, 2009 at 11:00 am |
Excellent posts from you all!
Now, here’s my take, and I’ll make it plain also.
Can’t help to notice a couple of very ODD things about Mr. Camping’s “ministry.”
#1
He NEVER, and I do mean NEVER, mentions the Love of God.
#2
In line with #1, He NEVER says to any of his callers to Family Radio that God loves them and to put their faith and hope in Jesus Christ. Camping speaks of God in generic terms when it comes to “trusting” God. He NEVER says, trust in the Lord Jesus Christ. I have listened on and off to the Family Radio program for over 10 YEARS, and I have not once ever heard Camping make any statements on the air regarding the LOVE OF GOD. In fact, I would say that his vocabulary for some strange reason is VOID of the use of this kind of language.
#3
He seems to think that God is finished with the Jews, and that there is no salvation plan for them, and in fact, he has stated that the Nation of Israel did not pass God’s 40 years of testing between 1948 to 1998, which according to him, proves that God is finished with them. This single point in and of itself tells me exactly who Camping is, and that he does not adher to sound doctrine, as Salvation is of the Jews and everyone else has been grafted into that Salvation plan.
November 5, 2009 at 9:52 pm |
Here’s another one of Mr. Camping’s incredible statements on today’s Open Forum radio program.
11/5/09 @ 5:54pm Pacific Time-
“The Holy Spirit abandon the Church in 1988 (i.e the beginning of the “Final Tribulation”), and installed Satan as ruler over the Church.” “From that time forward, no one was able to be saved if they are attending any organized Church.” “Since 1988, salvation has only been possible outside the Church as a direct act of God which will come to an end on 5/21/11, which is when God will judge the world and the Rapture will take place.”
In 1988 Camping published the book The Final Tribulation where he states that no one can be saved once the Tribulation has started which according to him was originally on May 21, 1988 (p.137-8 and 158). He has since then changed this to say that “once the Tribulation has ended no one can be saved, which updated by him to September 6, 1994. However, in only the last 18 months, he change his cut off date for anyone to be saved to the now infamous 5/21/11, end of the world, day of the rapture, thereby representing not two (2) times he has changed the cut off date for anyone to be save, but now that total stands at three (3) changes or resetting of cut off dates to be saved.
Keep in mind that Camping continues to adhere to quote “it is NOT possible for anyone to know they are saved, this is God’s business, and all one can do is cry out to God for mercy, then MAY BE, just MAY BE God will decide to save that person.” So therefore, these “cut off dates” for anyone to be “saved” are VOID of any meaning. Why? Because according to Mr. Camping, no one knows if they are saved or not, even if they are looking to his cut off dates for the rapture to occur, which is also his cut off date for anyone to be saved.
How terribly, terribly Mr. Camping suffers from all his internal struggles and tourments.
November 6, 2009 at 6:22 pm |
Hello all. Been busy. I’ll swing back through with a response soon. Take care.
November 6, 2009 at 10:22 pm |
JimB, the “false prophet” reference does not apply to Camping’s “1994?” Camping did not say that God proclaimed to him that 1994 was the end. We’ve been through the details of that. God’s revelation is through His Word to us all. I don’t believe Camping, I believe God.
You said God’s justice demands punishment for the devil and unsaved. Yes it does…it is punishment in the extreme to lose the eternal life we are created for. God told Adam as much at the “sentencing”. Where did He mention eternal torment to Adam in order for Adam to teach his children? What we mean when we “demand justice” is we want to know they are being punished because that’s what our human sense of justice calls for. That is called being vindictive, and it is a trait of natural man, not of God. That is why we assume God must be vindictive, because we are. The Bible does not teach eternal torment…it teaches eternal damnation which is being damned to losing our inheritance for eternity.
Senecus, you said that my “side of the aisle” would point out the account of Lazarus and the rich man is a parable. If it is not, then we have to now teach the doctrine that unsaved souls have already been judged and sent to hell, and that they converse with saved souls in heaven. Are you ready to teach that? God identifies Himself as a consuming fire, and the practice of destroying waste products through incineration is often used as a description of the death of the unsaved. What happens to items thrown in the fire? Do they burn forever? No, but they are destroyed forever in a flame that does not go out until the object is gone. Redemption is not possible. Fear Him that can destroy both body and soul in hell (sheol…the grave). This describes the same condition of the body and the soul…destruction.
Senecus, you skipped over my point. You are all saying that the Bible teaches that billions of souls of our family member, neighbors, and friends…billions of men, women, and children…will keep their eternal life and suffer in excruciating torment for all eternity. Camping says the Bible teaches that the unsaved will lose their eternal life, as God told Adam, and as the Bible repeats again and again. Who is fear-mongering? It’s almost incredible that comparison is even made!
As far as semantics…the love of God is the mercy of God and obedience to God, as the Bible defines it. Camping addresses the love of God almost every time he talks about Him.
“Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence? If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.” –Psalm 139: 7,8. .
“The Lord taketh pleasure in them that fear him, in those that hope in His mercy”. – Psalm 147:11
That hope in His mercy.
May His mercy be upon us. Goodnight, friends.
November 8, 2009 at 4:03 pm |
Hello again,Augustine – No,wasn’t skipping over your point, highlighting the “fear-mongering” portion of it. Fear is fear,people respond to situations according to their “worldview” . Hell may insight fear to those of a “traditional” Biblical view point, where as to a Campingite believer in annihilation,it would not. Only the “Date” and the “hope” they are saved (ready for it) would scare the hell out of them!(pun intended).
November 6, 2009 at 11:16 pm |
One more.
“Put not your trust in princes, nor in the sons of men in whom there is no help. His breath goes forth, he returneth to his earth, in that very day his thoughts perish”. – Psalm 146:3-4
Another description of death. He stops breathing, his body decomposes, and he has no more conscious existence…his thoughts perish.
November 8, 2009 at 4:09 pm |
Yes,physical death. ” He has no more conscious existence…..” that brings me back to my post about time/death…..sounds like you’re speaking of “soul sleep” here….not trying to “put words in your mouth”, Augustine, feel free to expand.
November 7, 2009 at 1:04 am |
I can see that you need the revelation of “the Second Death.”
“Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the First Resurrection: on such the second death hath no power.” (Revelation 20:6)”He that overcometh shall NOT be hurt by The Second Death.” (Revelation 2:11)
I sure don’t see “annihilation” anywhere here in these passages of scriptures. Second Death sure is NOT a synonym for annihilation, now is it?? I perceive from Scriptures that there are two deaths, man’s physical death which is the result of man’s spiritual death, which is what happened to Adam and Eve when they sinned against God, and then as a result of that, they passed this “death principal” on to all of humanity that was to be born through them.
The Second Death, is an Eternal Law, it is the opposite of “The Tree of Life”, or The Law of Life which is also an Eternal Law. It describes the Nature of God Himself. It was present in the Garden of Eden. The Law of Eternal Death was also present in the Garden of Eden, which was the Devil. He became a law unto himself through his rebellion in Heaven when he was still Lucifer, and by doing do, he (the Devil or Satan) introduced the Law of Eternal Death into the Universe, because before He (Satan) did what he did, there was NO LAW OF ETERNAL DEATH. Satan fully embodies the Law of Eternal Death, which has to do with ETERNAL SEPERATION FROM GOD. This is the condition that the Devil wants to see all of humanity end up in. In the Garden of Eden, it was Satan’s desire and purpose to pass (or transfer) his Law of Eternal Death onto God’s creation (Adam & Eve) and ultimately to all of humanity, thereby attempting to destroy a central element of God’s Divine creation. He (Satan) almost succeded if it had not been for the Tree of (Eternal) taking on the form of a man in Jesus Christ…more on this later.
So, let’s take a look at this “Second Death” and what it is.
Keep in mind that these LAWS are ETERNAL IN NATURE, i.e. The Law of Life vs. The Law of Death…try to stay with me through this, and please forgive me if I repeat myself.
And the Lord God said, “The man (Adam) has now become like one of Us, knowing Good and Evil (Here are those two laws mentioned right here, i.e. Good = The Law of Life vs. Evil = The Law of Death). Then God said, He (Adam) must NOT be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the Tree of Life and eat, and LIVE FOREVER.” (Genesis 3:22). WHY???? As a consequence of Adam and Eve’s sin, they were banished from the Garden of Eden and denied access to the “Tree of Life” which I came to understand that it represented The LAW of God, specifically, the LAW of God’s own Nature which is the Law of Eternal Life, unending. Keep in mind that Adam and Eve were under testing by God after He created them, because according to scripture, all Faith must be tested. God creates everything by Faith if you know you bible. God in His Mercy prevented Adam and Eve right there in the Garden of Eden from entering into Eternal Seperation from God in their fallen condition by preventing them access to the Tree of Life. This would be permitted LATER with the 1st advent of Christ, but not at that time in God’s economy. God did not want them to then turn around and make matters much, much worse, and even irreversable so, by them eating of the Divine Law of Eternal Life (i.e. that Law taking up permancent residence in their human spirit), which would have cause them to live Eternally seperated from God, which is EXACTLY what the Second Death speaks of. So here, we see Satan deceiving Adam and Eve, and passing onto him his Nature, the Law of Eternal Death and Sin, then, the Devil being a clever as he is, wanted Adam and Eve to remain in the Garden and also eat of the Tree of Life (or the principal of Eternal Life) so that their condition would become IRREVERSABLE. God did NOT allow that to happen, so this is why He banished them from the Garden, until the Tree of Life (The Law of Eternal Life) became a man (Jesus Christ), more on this in just a moment.
ALL SIN HAS TO DO WITH SEPERATION FROM GOD, THE SOURCE OF ALL LIFE.
Here we see that God in His Great Love, banished Adam and Eve from the Garden of Eden to make sure that they did not partake of the “Tree of Life”, because in doing so again, they would have throwen both themselves and the entire human race into an irreversable condition of the effects of sin and seperation from God unable to ever escape it’s effects(i.e. the principal of death, dying, and decay) living like a mortal man, then to make matters worse, they would have wound up eternally seperated from God in their condition of sin or being seperated from God.
In time, God would send the incarnation of the “Tree of Life” (i.e. The Law of Life, or The Principal of Life), which is none other than The Lord Jesus Christ, into the world and for Him to live and die like a man, but without sin, and in doing so, He qualified to “undo” the seperation from God that Adam and Eve caused, by His death on the cross. Then, and only then, was man to “partake of the Tree of Life” by “Faith”, namely The Lord Jesus Christ, according to the Divine Plan and provision of God, and in doing do, gain Eternal Life, and live forever without sin and in God’s Holy Kingdom.
Now, here’s my point regarding the revelation of the “Second Death.” This has to do with those who NEVER received, by Faith, the Lord Jesus Christ, and because of this, i.e. rejecting His blood Atonement power over Death, the end result of this is that any unsaved human being is going to live forever, eternally seperated from God (just like the Devil and His Angels). Remember, that the Devil passed his Law of Death onto Adam and Eve. This is what would have happened in the Garden of Eden had God not prevented Adam and Eve from the possibility of partaking of the “Principal of Life” (Tree of Life), so that God in his own timing and fullness of His plans, would make a way for man to “get rid of his sin” through receiving by Faith the transference of sin and death for Eternal Life through Faith in Jesus Christ. This provision was NOT in place in the Garden of Eden because it (The Law of Life or Principal of Life) had to be incarnated so that there would be a genuine qualification for a sinless man (Jesus Christ) to pay the price for all sinners IN HIS OWN BODY on the cross, so that the sinner may go free, which is what Jesus being the propitiation of the sin for all humanity is about(i.e. The provision and/or method which pleased or satisfied God’s requirement for the “undoing” of the sin of mankind). This was Jesus’s very purpose for being sent into the world by God the Father. We see Satan playing “Judo” in the Garden of Eden with Adam, Eve, and God. He (Satan) wanted to use God’s own principal of Eternal Life against Adam and Eve, which is exactly what God was going to give them had they passed God’s testing in the Garden. When we fast forward, we see man passing God’s testing in Jesus Christ for living a sinless life, and our trusting in J.C. to take away our sins by Faith in His blood sacrafice on Calvary. Oh, yes, God indeed wanted us to partake of the Tree of Life which could of happened the “right way” in the Garden of Eden if, again, Adam and Eve would have NOT obeyed the Devil, but again, God in his Wonder Mercy is the God of second chances, the Jesus Christ is man’s only second chance he will ever get to partake of the Principal of Eternal Life, in Jesus Christ.
So here rests the explanation that “unsaved man” SHALL INDEED live forever in a bodily form, an eternal bodily form, as an eternal being who is eternally seperated from God tourmented day and night in the Lake of Fire with the Devil and his Angels, because he (unsaved man) rejected God’s only provision to escape this terrible condition. God wants mankind to partake of the “Tree of Life” (Jesus Christ) now that He has come in the flesh and qualified to make the transfer of the sin and the ultimate consequences of it (the Second Death) for Eternal Life in Christ through Faith.
Now, let’s balance this.
Keep in mind that God was NEVER obligated to save man, in fact, it is recorded in scriptures that God was “sorry” that He ever created man (see below). So this has to do with God’s elect, that for some reason, He extends his Mercy on whosoever He Wills, which according to the scriptures, is a mystery, as God makes one vessel for destruction and another for honorable purposes.
“Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was evil continually. And the Lord was SORRY that He created man on the earth and He was grieved in His heart.”(Genesis 6:5&6)
Through God’s salvation plan, he still administers justice, as He was NOT responsible for man (Adam and Eve) and all of mankind, in their choice for sin over God’s Holiness.
Yes, the Lake of Fire is very real, it is a place where the all of unsaved humanity will live out “The Second Death” reality, i.e. Eternal Seperation from God due to their unrepented sins which could have been taken away if they would have placed their Faith in Jesus Christ, so basically the Second Death has to do with all those humans that were NEVER among God’s elect, they never heeded to the call to Salvation and Eternal Life in Jesus Christ.
I hope this stimulates some good discussion on this important topic! The Second Death is NOT annihilation, and we should all deal with it one way or another. Remember that God said, He did NOT want Adam and Eve to partake of the Tree of Life AND LIVE FOREVER (i.e. in the condition they caused themselves to fall into with the help of the Devil). Remember, Sin seperates from God, the wages of sin is Death, Death will go on into eternity and all those intimately associated with its PRINCIPAL (i.e. SATAN), seperated from God. This is WHAT Jesus came to prevent, thereby demonstrating God’s Infinite Mercy and Love, so even God repented from His previously saying that He was sorry that He created man, and His sending Jesus Christ into the world is proof of His Eternal Love.
First Death = physical death as a result of spiritual death inherited through Adam, the present condition of humanity. This condition is reversable through Faith in Jesus Christ.
Second Death = eternal seperation from God. This condition is irreversible as a result of one NOT heeding to the call of Salvation, and remaining in sin.
November 7, 2009 at 1:41 am |
Yes, Augustine, you are speaking however of the First Death, i.e. the effects if “physical death only.” However, there is coming a “Second Death” in the future that is very clearly recorded in scripture as I’ve outlined above, it is none other than God resurrecting all the unsaved, the unredeemed who ever lived….bringing them ALL back to life physically in a real body that is capable of eternal existence, a body that will NOT return to the dust of the earth…these will all stand before the Great White Throne Judgement recorded in the Book of Revelation, of which Jesus Christ presides over, which is the Judgement of Eternal Seperation from God; THE SECOND DEATH JUDGEMENT. This Judgement is for the purpose of conferring sentencing upon the unsaved, those who’s names were not written in the Lamb’s Book Of Life before the foundations of the world, these are those who are not of among God’s elect, those who never believed in the Lord Jesus Christ by Faith alone, and thus were never indwelled by The Holy Spirit. These all will go into eternity, with their former conscious mind, a real physical body far different than our present human body that wears out, and their unsaved soul (i.e. mind, will and emotions), eternally seperated from God irreversibly, in the Eternal Lake of Fire, God’s appointed place of suffering and rememberence for their evil deeds and for trampling under foot God’s Holiness and Love…..as the Book of Revelations says….”and the smoke of their torment will rise up FOREVER, AND EVER.” How can someone be “tormented forever and ever”, if they are not aware of anything…Let’s be honest now and not play games with words like you know who.
November 7, 2009 at 7:45 am |
( . Y . )
November 7, 2009 at 12:42 pm |
“The smoke of their torment will rise up forever and ever”. Smoke is a particulate by-product of combustion. If a particulate by-product is being produced, then that means something is physically burning. Smoke rising denotes the passage of linear time, the presence of atmospheric pressure, temperature, and other features of this creation.
Spiritual souls physically burning in eternal linear time in a place with earthly features? This conclusion doesn’t harmonize with Scripture or the nature of God as He has revealed Himself. God teaches us in parables so that we can understand spiritual truths by comparing them to earthly experiences and knowledge.
November 7, 2009 at 3:32 pm |
I’ll throw in something else to ponder. When does every knee bow and every tongue confess? And when every tongue confesses, remember what was said? Confess with your mouth and you will be saved.
I will be waiting to hear the circles that explanation will create.
November 7, 2009 at 3:42 pm |
Augustine,
You are learning to rationalize and twist scripture. God does talk in human terms so we can understand eternity. Just like in Revelation 21 and 22, God uses language such as gold, and pearls, and a temple.
Luke 16 may be a parable. But the lesson we learn from the parable is NOT annihilation. The lesson we learn is that the unsaved are conscious and are suffering. Why would Jesus say such a parable, if they just die, and are not conscious ever again. Jesus would be lying by implying people are conscious after death. According to your annihilation theory, people just die, and are ressurected DEAD and are not conscious. But the Bible indicates that the unsaved, must give an account for every idle word. If they are ressurected dead and are not conscious, how can they give this account. Also Matthew 25 indicates, that the unsaved will ask, when they saw Jesus, and did not serve Him. How can they do that if they are dead, and not conscious?
The Bible is crystal clear that there is ressurection of the saved and unsaved on the LAST DAY when Jesus returns. This does not have anything to do with the 5 months, which is a heresy from Satan.
Annihilation means that everything is burned up and dies, and the fire goes out, and ceases. But Jesus uses earthly terms to clearly say that the fire never goes out. Whether there is literal fire or not, or if there are worms, is not revelant. But the point is that the conscious punishment that never ends for the devil and unsaved.
Mark 9:
42 And whosoever(False Teachers) shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.
43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Do you think that Jesus is saying this so we believe in Annihilation. Why would Jesus say the the fire is never quenched? And the worm dieth not? Annihilation means that everything is burned up and consumed and dies, and the fire goes out? Why would Jesus talk like this if everything gets burned up?
God Bless,
Jim B.
November 7, 2009 at 8:39 pm |
“And the smoke of their TORMENT ascendeth up FOR EVER AND EVER: and they have NO REST DAY OR NIGHT, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name (Rev 14:11).
And the Devil that deceived them was cast into the Lake of Fire and brimstone, where the Beast and the False Prophet are, and shall be TORMENTED DAY AND NIGHT FOR EVER AND EVER. (Rev 20:10)
But the fearful, the unbelieving, the abominable, murderers, whoremongers, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the Lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: this is the Second Death. (Rev 21:8)
This kind of language God uses “FOR EVER AND EVER”, “TOURMENTED DAY AND NIGH”, is a TOUGH NUT TO CRACK, when comparing these terms to “annihilation.”
Simply put, they do NOT convey the same meaning
or even a similar meaning. In fact, their meanings are exactly the opposite of each other.
There is no need to look at any parables to comprehend what is going to happen to the unsaved. I already gave the discussion earlier today about the reason why God banished Adam & Eve from the Garden of Eden when they sin against God and died spiritually that very same day. If in their fallen condition of sin, which they made a choice not only for themselves but also for all of humanity, had they partaken of the Tree of Life afterwards, they would have become eternally seperated from God, all on the same day, right there in the Garden of Eden.
God made certain that this would not happen, He did not want them (and all of humanity in them to come), to live eternally in an irreversable condition seperated from Himself. What God did there in the Garden of Eden speaks volumes of the reality of the Second Death being an ETERNAL condition of suffering and tourment just like God says in several verses of Revelations which I already posted. God said it, He did not want them to live forever in a fallen condition, this is what Satan wanted for them both and for all of humanity, living FOREVER SEPERATED FROM GOD, aka: THE SECOND DEATH!
The First Death = physical death, it is temporary and reversible. It is the result of the “sin principal” which has to do with seperation from God, which Adam and Even inherited from the Devil by yielding to him, and in doing do, they passed the sin principal of seperation from God onto all of humanity.
The Second Death = permanent, irreversible, and eternal death as a result of unrepented sin due to rejection of God’s only provision (The blood atonement of the Lord Jesus Christ) to escape this condition.
I’ve explained this in detail earlier today, and I’m not going to explain it again.
November 7, 2009 at 8:52 pm |
JimB,
The Bible says the saved have their inheritance of eternal life and the unsaved do not. I did not twist it to say otherwise. The Bible says God destroys the soul in death. I did not twist it to say otherwise. The Bible says the unsaved man has no more thought or knowledge of anything after he dies. I did not twist it to say otherwise. The word “hell” is translated from the word for “covering” used to describe the grave. I did not twist that.
The Bible compares death to the consumption of objects by fire. This led people for centuries to adopt the concept of the tormented underworld of Egyptian and Greek mythology. But God says that HE is the consuming fire.
You ask why would Jesus speak this way? The Apostles already asked Him that. And He replied, “Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand”.
I’m not twisting “die, dead, death, destroy, destruction, and hell”, to mean something else.
“For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished…Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest. Ecc 9: 5,10
“The wages of sin is death”.
“And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire” – Rev 20. Hell itself is to be tormented? Hell means “grave”. There will be no more death, no more grave.
November 8, 2009 at 12:17 am |
Do you understand everything that God says in full dimension????? Do you perfectly comprehend God’s Eternal Nature? Do you comprehend how Jesus was able to walk of water??, or suddenly appear in a room when all the doors were closed?? God has many names in the Bible, not just one, each of His names describes various aspects of his Eternal attributes, do you perfectly understand all that God IS, DOES and SAYS?? Do you understand the Trinity, and that God birthed Himself in a virgin named Mary, and that He had no earthly father and never committed any sin?
So unless you comprehend everthing there is to know about God, how is it that you STRUGGLE with God describing himself as a “consuming fire” or that Death and Hell were cast into the Lake of Fire where there is tourment day and night??
What you are saying in all of this, is that unless you comprehend everything about God and for it to make sense to YOU, then it must not be possible for rational reason that it simply “doesn’t make sense” to YOU.
You being a man, just like all of us here, are attempting to comprehend God’s nature through a limited human mind….IT AIN’T GONNA HAPPEN, which is why Faith is required, which has to do with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, who’s central ministry is to “illuminate” or “revelate” the Word of God, and also, bare witness to the Truth, this is the ONLY way in our present human experience that we are able to “comprehend” what God is talking about in scriptures. So one’s ability to comprehend God’s discussions in scriptures can come only by Faith, just like everything else does in God’s economy.
To see these things, like death and Hell being cast into the Lake of Fire being tourmented with all else who are there, doesn’t make sense, and it doesn’t have to for it to be a Divine fact.
I highly recommend that you take a look at the following scripture as it explains what you are struggling with.
“For the present time (here on earth) we see things as if in a mirror and we are puzzled; but then we shall see them face to face. For the present the knowledge I gain is IMPERFECT; but then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.” (1 Cor 13:12-WNT)
This scripture thoroughly addresses your struggles with Biblical Truths like the Eternal Lake of Fire, death and hell being cast there also, etc.
I leave you with this:
Do you recall the Biblical account of Moses on Mt. Horeb when he encountered God in a burning bush and out of that bush God spoke to him the Ten Commandments? According to the biblical account of this event, THE BUSH WAS ON FIRE, but was NOT consumed by the flames. Now, how was that possible??
Yes, the Bible does compare death to the consumption of objects by fire, but that does NOT necessarily mean that the objects are destroyed or vaporized by the fire, just as in the burning bush event. So, with this, it is VERY easy to discern that God is able to do anything, including resurrecting the unsaved and putting them into a physical body that is able to withstand the flames of the Lake of Fire throughout all eternity.
This dynamic is what is referred to as “disambiguation”, which means that a single term can be associated with more that one meaning, and this is clearly seen in the example I just gave you with the burning bush.
Yes, Jesus did speak in parables, but NOT always, and the reason why he used parables was so that it was only possible to comprehend what He was talking about through the revelating power of the Spirit of God given only to those who received Him and his Words. The Bible clearly describes this in the Gospels.
I pray that thine eyes of underatanding be enlightened, and that you receive the Holy Spirit.
November 8, 2009 at 10:19 am |
Revelation 20:
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Revelation 14:9
If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night….
Matthew 25:
41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’
44 “Then they also will answer Him saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
Deut 4:
2 You shall not add to the word which I command you, nor take from it
November 8, 2009 at 2:55 pm |
Jim-
Mat 25:46 you posted very clearly reveals the Law of Eternal Life vs. The Law of Eternal Death. Both are eternal physical, bodily, and conscious realities.
As you and I and others have been maintaining in discussion all along, there is no “annihilation”, it is a deception, it is one of several instruments of the Devil’s tool box.
If someone is “dead and unconscious” and/or they “cease to exist” like Mr. Camping claims through his twisting doctrine, then the words God uses in the scriptures you quoted are a misapplication, and we know that that is NOT the case.
So either Mr. Camping is being DISHONEST OR ILLITERATE, or God is being DISHONEST OR ILLITERATE. I’ll bank on Mr. Camping being dishonest or illiterate, and it’s absolutely amazing how someone can look at the words being used in scriptures verses like the ones you quoted above and come up with something completely different than what is being said.
Another thing Camping is famous for is saying that the Bible intreprets itself, and that a student of the bible must examine all scriptures on a particular topic or doctrine to “discern Truth.” This is correct. However, Camping does NOT do this himself, in fact, he selectively disregards scriptures that are very clearly central to a specific doctrine, then goes to obscured or Old Testament verses (types and shadows of The Truth) in an attempt to bring greater clarity on New Testament verses (the Truth in full view view) which is a fatal violation of biblical hermeneutics. Then on top of it all, he assigns an allegorical definition which essentially REDIRECTS the original intended meaning, so here’s what Camping style interpretation produces:
Camping quote:
“everlasting punishment” means that the unsaved person doesn’t exist anymore throughout all eternity, that is their punishment, they cease to exist. They will never partake of God’s Eternal Kindgom.”
This is one of Camping’s famous quotes, and by this, it shows that he does NOT discern the Law of Eternal Death (i.e. eternal seperation from God), nor the doctrine of the resurrection of the unsaved who will face the Great White Throne Judgement in the future where the Law of Eternal Death will be commuted upon them in their unsaved condition, after which time, they will immediately be cast ALIVE into the Lake of Fire where the beast and false prophet are, and shall be tourmented day and night, forever and ever. Notice how the scripture mentions “CAST ALIVE” into the the Lake of Fire……How are these unsaved people suddently seen here ALIVE??..the resurrection of the unsaved for the purpose of facting The Second Death Judgement, where they will be eternally seperated from God, which is the result of a choice that they made. Camping says that the unsaved’s body only will be shot out of the grave like a cannon and put out on the ground by God, and that this is the unsaved’s person shame, then they will disappear when the world is consumed by fire along with all the rest of the unbelieveing world, and all will cease to exist. This is a DRAMATIC heresy on Camping’s part. It’s absolutely DISHONEST AND RIDICULOUS.
Let me give another example of Camping style misintrepretation: For example if you wrote a letter to me and mention in that you had a “bad day”, if I were applying Camping style interpretation, I would walk away with, “Jim said in a previous letter that he had a good day, and that he did not like rain, so therefore when he said in this current letter that he had a bad day, that meant that it was a rainy day.” This is EXACTLY what Mr. Camping does, and what he has done with annihilation is that he does not comprehend the doctrine of the Second Death, nor the Law of Eternal Death, which of course means that he does not have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit to show him these kinds of things.
Mr. Camping (and all of his followers) needs to be Born Again. They need to receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit of God.
November 8, 2009 at 4:15 pm |
Found an interesting take from CRI – H.Hanegraaff’s site,this is an exerpt from the article:
Why Should I Believe in Hell?
DH190
Hank Hanegraaff
This article first appeared in the Ask Hank column of the Christian Research Journal, volume 27, number 1 (2004). For further information or to subscribe to the Christian Research Journal go to: http://www.equip.org
“Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt” (Dan. 12:2 niv).
The horrors of hell are such that they cause us instinctively to recoil in disbelief and doubt; yet, there are compelling reasons that should cause us to erase such doubt from our minds. First, Christ, the Creator of the cosmos, clearly communicated hell’s irrevocable reality. In fact, He spent more time talking about hell than He did about heaven. In the Sermon on the Mount (Matt. 5–7), He explicitly warned His followers more than a half-dozen times about the dangers that lead to hell. In the Olivet Discourse (Matt. 24–25), He repeatedly told His followers of the judgment to come. In His famous story of the Rich Man and Lazarus (Luke 16), He graphically portrayed the finality of eternal torment in hell.
Furthermore, the concept of choice demands that we believe in hell. Without hell, there is no choice. Without choice, heaven would not be heaven; heaven would be hell. The righteous would inherit a counterfeit heaven, and the unrighteous would be incarcerated in heaven against their wills, which would be a torture worse than hell. Imagine spending a lifetime voluntarily distanced from God only to find yourself involuntarily dragged into His loving presence for all eternity. The alternative to hell would be worse than hell itself in that humans made in the image of God would be stripped of freedom and forced to worship God against their will.
Finally, common sense regarding justice dictates that there must be a hell. Without hell, the wrongs of Hitler’s Holocaust would never be righted. Justice would be impugned if, after slaughtering six million Jews, Hitler merely died in the arms of his mistress with no eternal consequences. The ancients knew better than to think such a thing. David knew that it might seem for a time as though the wicked prosper despite their evil deeds, but in the end justice will be served. We may wish to think that no one will go to hell, but common sense regarding justice precludes that possibility.
Is Annihilationism Biblical?
If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, he, too, will drink of the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name. (Rev. 14:9–11 niv)
Just as universalism (i.e., everyone will be saved) is the rage in liberal Christian circles, so, too, annihilationism (i.e., God will annihilate unbelievers) is gaining momentum in conservative Christian circles. The question, of course, is whether annihilationism is biblical.
First, common sense tells us that a God of love and justice does not arbitrarily annihilate a portion of the crowning jewels of His creation. He graciously provides everyone the freedom to choose between redemption and rebellion. It would be a horrific evil to think that God would create people with freedom of choice and then annihilate them because of their choices.
Furthermore, common sense also leads us to the conclusion that nonexistence is not better than existence since nonexistence is nothing at all. It is also crucial to recognize that not all existence in hell will be equal. We may safely conclude that Hitler’s torment in hell will greatly exceed the torment experienced by a garden-variety pagan. God is perfectly just, and each person who spurns His grace will suffer exactly what he or she deserves (see Luke 12:47–48; cf. Prov. 24:12; Matt. 16:27; Col. 3:25; Rev. 20:11–15).
Finally, humans are fashioned in the very image of God (Gen. 1:27); therefore, to eliminate them would do violence to His nature. The alternative to annihilation is quarantine. That is precisely what hell is.
For further study, see Robert A. Peterson, Hell on Trial: The Case for Eternal Punishment (Phillipsburg, NJ: Presbyterian and Reformed Press, 1995).
November 8, 2009 at 4:22 pm |
Ron K.
You are correct. When the Devil came to Eve, he said ” you shall sure not die”. Satan is coming today and saying, “Has God really said there is eternal conscious punishment”. There is many verses that say the the wages of sin is death, etc. I have no problem with any of these verses. PHYSICAL DEATH IS A PART of the curse. So all of the verses that talk about physical death are correct and stand as they read. But the Bible is also clear that there is a resurection of unbelievers. As we saw in Matt 25, the unsaved are TALKING to Christ, and therefore they have been resurrected and are conscious and they must answer to God for their sins. Harold Camping teaches that these people are resurrected “DEAD” and are “SHAMED” for “5 months”. If you are dead, how can you be ashamed? You are not conscious, so who care what happens!!! This is Mr Camping’s desparate attemp to get around Daniel 12.
Daniel 12:
2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
Some to everlasting life,
Some to shame and everlasting contempt.
We clearly read that unsaved people will awake, and experience shame and EVERLASTING CONTEMPT. This is where Mr Camping gets his heresy that their “bones will be shamed”.
John 5:
28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation
Notice again that it says that ALL in the graves will HEAR HIS VOICE. How can someone who is dead HEAR? Mr Camping teaches that people remain dead, the BIBLE teaches that unsaved people are resurrected, come back to life and are conscious, and are judged.
Matthew 12:
36 But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment.
Again, how can someone give account of anything if they are dead and unconscious?
The idea of unsaved people remaining dead and uncounscious for the resurrection, and shamed for 5 months, is a stange doctrine and a heresy from the pit of hell and satan.
However we must not judge anyone and be like Mr Camping and say anyone is unsaved. We can believe in a lot of wrong doctrines and still be saved. I used to believe in some wrong doctrines, and I already knew I was saved, and had God’s Spirit within me.
God Bless,
Jim B.
November 8, 2009 at 7:48 pm |
I think satan got h camping right?
November 9, 2009 at 1:20 am |
I found this interesting testimony on the internet. I think that he stated it clearly when he said he had to decide if date setting was right or wrong.
There was a time when I was a member of the Reformed Bible Church (RBC) in Alameda, CA where Mr. Camping was an elder and also taught Sunday school. I attended church there for over three years, from late 1992 to mid 1996. Mr. Camping always said, “Don’t trust me check out the bible for yourself.” But not many people did.
Mr. Camping’s new “Death of the Church” doctrine reminds me of the time Family Radio listeners as well as the RBC followed his false doctrine of “1994″ (the year Christ was supposed to return). At that time, I also believed there was a great probability that Christ was going to return in 1994 but I based it all on a man instead of on the bible alone. Mr. Camping seemed to be very intelligent, so I figured if anyone was going to know, it was going to be him. We all trusted his complex and over spiritualized interpretation of the bible instead of trusting the Lord’s plain and simple message about the matter. “But of that day and hour knoweth no man” (Matthew 24:36). Nowhere in the bible did God say His Son was coming in 1994. Moreover, the bible plainly said that NO MAN would ever know. We were used to being spoon fed by Mr. Camping and became conditioned not to study the scriptures for ourselves – that was a big mistake. Mr. Camping started talking about a new date again in 1996. Mr. Jesse Gistand, who was an elder at RBC for a term and also taught the Friday night bible study, warned us about date setting. He publicly exhorted us all to examine whether the whole business of 1994 was sinful or not. If it was, then we needed to repent from it. The issue of date setting needed to be resolved. It was not a matter of “not having all the information” like Mr. Camping was saying; it was a matter of right or wrong. That was when I finally understood that date setting was wrong.
On Sunday morning, May 10, 1996, Mr. Camping announced that any opposition to the idea of figuring out the timing of the Lord’s return would not be tolerated. He canceled the Friday night bible study. I took that announcement very personally. It meant that I could not openly disagree with Mr. Camping. It meant that I could only continue going to church if I remained silent on the issue. That morning I knew that I was never going to attend RBC again – I had no desire to.
The fact is Mr. Camping caused a major division in the church because his date setting doctrine was contrary to the doctrine of Christ. “mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.” (Romans 16:17) Date setting is contrary to the doctrine of Christ. “But of that day and hour knoweth no man” (Matthew 24:36).
November 9, 2009 at 9:06 am |
JimB,
You posted excellent examples of the spiritually symbolic parables that the Bible told us God teaches us with. These explain the thoroughness of the destruction of the unsaved, as a fire consumes and destroys something forever. Its destruction is eternal and it is unredeemable. Can you present verses that change the definition of “death” to “life”, “dead” to “alive”, “destroy” to “not destroy” as would be necessary to believe the false doctrine of eternal torment? To single out a group of verses and compare them only to each other is the origin of all kinds of apostate gospels, but to compare them to the entire Word is the path to the revelation of Truth and to free us from the superstitions of ancient heathen mythology.
“And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever”. Day and night in eternal torment? Is half of the statement symbolic and the other half literal?
“He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb”. Are the angels and God present in eternal torment…or is eternal torment located in heaven?
“And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched”. Again, to come up with literal eternal torment is to make half of the verse symbolic and half literal. That is to play semantic acrobatics with the Bible in order to get it to fit preconceived notions of eternal torment that we were all raised with and permeates our society.
Indeed, to read everything the Bible has to say about death and dying and come away with eternal torment is to approach the Word with preconceived notions of hell from the mythological heathen doctrines of the tormented underworld, not the reality of the God of the Bible.
The word “hell” is “sheol” meaning “covering”…used for “grave”. Where is the word that describes a place or condition of eternal torment?
To isolate small groups of verses is to add one’s own doctrine to the Bible. It is not suprising that man struggles against this Biblical principle, for man is resistant to truly die to himself as is necessary for life in Christ.
November 9, 2009 at 12:31 pm |
I was just listening to a sermon from a local pastor and he made the point that the Bible was not inspired by God to become a book of information. The purpose of the Bible is to transform our lives. It is interesting what happens when we make information the goal and not transformation.
November 9, 2009 at 10:08 pm |
Here’s a question for Augustine.
There is a dialog recorded in the Bible in two places where a demon is speaking directly to Jesus Christ, where the demon has raised a question and also expresses a concern to Jesus about his future fate of being TORMENTED.
Let’s take a look at these two scriptures:
Matt 8:28-29 (NIV)
“When he (Jesus) arrived at the other side in the region of Gadarenes, two demon possessed men coming from the tombs met him (Jesus). They were so violent that no one could pass by.” One of the demons shouted out and said to Jesus, “What do you want with us Son of God?” “Have you come here to TORMENT us before the appointed time?”
Mark 5:7 (KJV)
“When he (a demon possessed man) saw Jesus approaching from a distance, he ran and fell on his knees in front of Him (Jesus), then he cried with a loud voice and said to Jesus, “what have I to do with thee Jesus, thou Son of the Most High God? “I adjure thee by God, that thou TORMENT ME NOT.”
Now, here’s my question. In this dialog seen in both these scriptures, a demon inside of a man is confronting Jesus Christ, and based on what the demon says, there are at least three (3) things that are readily apparent:
#1
the demon is AWARE that he is going to be tormented sometime in the future.
#2
the demon is asking Jesus NOT to torment him (them).
#3
the demon specifically expresses a concern regarding if his torment is going to occur prematurely? (i.e. before the appointed time in the future).
Now, with that said, out of all the things the demon could have said to Jesus, such as offering Jesus some sort of temptation in an attempt to get Him out of God’s will, and/or misquoting scriptures, etc., why do you suppose that the demon is very clearly preoccupied with his being “tormented”, if his fate is annihilation? If he’s going to be annihilated and cease to exist, why does the demon express a specific concern about this event happening sooner than later?
Also, since the demon is a spirit being, he would logically not have a bible in front of him, nor would he be a student of the bible, when in fact he is an enemy of God and God’s Word. Also, the New Testament Bible and the Book of Revelation had NOT been written yet at the time this dialog occurred between Jesus and the demon.
So again, my question is, why is the demon seen here expressing these kind of specific concerns about his being tormented and how soon??? Keep in mind that demons are only able to express either lies or fears about the Truth of God’s Word. The latter is what this demon is seen doing here in these two scriptures.
Please be very specific in your response.
Thanks
Ron