There is a dialog recorded in the Bible in two places where a demon is speaking directly to Jesus Christ, where the demon has raised a question and also expresses a concern to Jesus about his future fate of being TORMENTED.

Let’s take a look at these two scriptures:

Matt 8:28-29 (NIV)

“When he (Jesus) arrived at the other side in the region of Gadarenes, two demon possessed men coming from the tombs met him (Jesus). They were so violent that no one could pass by.” One of the demons shouted out and said to Jesus, “What do you want with us Son of God?” “Have you come here to TORMENT us before the appointed time?”

Mark 5:7 (KJV)

“When he (a demon possessed man) saw Jesus approaching from a distance, he ran and fell on his knees in front of Him (Jesus), then he cried with a loud voice and said to Jesus, “what have I to do with thee Jesus, thou Son of the Most High God? “I adjure thee by God, that thou TORMENT ME NOT.”

Now, here’s my question. In this dialog seen in both these scriptures, a demon inside of a man is confronting Jesus Christ, and based on what the demon says, there are at least three (3) things that are readily apparent:

#1
the demon is AWARE that he is going to be tormented sometime in the future.

#2
the demon is asking Jesus NOT to torment him (them).

#3
the demon specifically expresses a concern regarding if his torment is going to occur prematurely? (i.e. before the appointed time in the future).

Now, with that said, out of all the things the demon could have said to Jesus, such as offering Jesus some sort of temptation in an attempt to get Him out of God’s will, and/or misquoting scriptures, etc., why do you suppose that the demon is very clearly preoccupied with his being “tormented”, if his fate is annihilation? If he’s going to be annihilated and cease to exist, why does the demon express a specific concern about this event happening sooner than later?

Also, since the demon is a spirit being, he would logically not have a bible in front of him, nor would he be a student of the bible, when in fact he is an enemy of God and God’s Word. Also, the New Testament Bible and the Book of Revelation had NOT been written yet at the time this dialog occurred between Jesus and the demon.

So again, my question is, why is the demon seen here expressing these kind of specific concerns about his being tormented and how soon??? Keep in mind that demons are only able to express either lies or fears about the Truth of God’s Word. The latter is what this demon is seen doing here in these two scriptures.

Please be very specific in your response.

Thanks

Ron

You posted excellent examples of the spiritually symbolic parables that the Bible told us God teaches us with. These explain the thoroughness of the destruction of the unsaved, as a fire consumes and destroys something forever. Its destruction is eternal and it is unredeemable. Can you present verses that change the definition of “death” to “life”, “dead” to “alive”, “destroy” to “not destroy” as would be necessary to believe the false doctrine of eternal torment? To single out a group of verses and compare them only to each other is the origin of all kinds of apostate gospels, but to compare them to the entire Word is the path to the revelation of Truth and to free us from the superstitions of ancient heathen mythology.

“And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever”. Day and night in eternal torment? Is half of the statement symbolic and the other half literal?

“He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb”. Are the angels and God present in eternal torment…or is eternal torment located in heaven?

“And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched”. Again, to come up with literal eternal torment is to make half of the verse symbolic and half literal. That is to play semantic acrobatics with the Bible in order to get it to fit preconceived notions of eternal torment that we were all raised with and permeates our society.

Indeed, to read everything the Bible has to say about death and dying and come away with eternal torment is to approach the Word with preconceived notions of hell from the mythological heathen doctrines of the tormented underworld, not the reality of the God of the Bible.

The word “hell” is “sheol” meaning “covering”…used for “grave”. Where is the word that describes a place or condition of eternal torment?

To isolate small groups of verses is to add one’s own doctrine to the Bible. It is not suprising that man struggles against this Biblical principle, for man is resistant to truly die to himself as is necessary for life in Christ.

There was a time when I was a member of the Reformed Bible Church (RBC) in Alameda, CA where Mr. Camping was an elder and also taught Sunday school. I attended church there for over three years, from late 1992 to mid 1996. Mr. Camping always said, “Don’t trust me check out the bible for yourself.” But not many people did.

Mr. Camping’s new “Death of the Church” doctrine reminds me of the time Family Radio listeners as well as the RBC followed his false doctrine of “1994″ (the year Christ was supposed to return). At that time, I also believed there was a great probability that Christ was going to return in 1994 but I based it all on a man instead of on the bible alone. Mr. Camping seemed to be very intelligent, so I figured if anyone was going to know, it was going to be him. We all trusted his complex and over spiritualized interpretation of the bible instead of trusting the Lord’s plain and simple message about the matter. “But of that day and hour knoweth no man” (Matthew 24:36). Nowhere in the bible did God say His Son was coming in 1994. Moreover, the bible plainly said that NO MAN would ever know. We were used to being spoon fed by Mr. Camping and became conditioned not to study the scriptures for ourselves – that was a big mistake. Mr. Camping started talking about a new date again in 1996. Mr. Jesse Gistand, who was an elder at RBC for a term and also taught the Friday night bible study, warned us about date setting. He publicly exhorted us all to examine whether the whole business of 1994 was sinful or not. If it was, then we needed to repent from it. The issue of date setting needed to be resolved. It was not a matter of “not having all the information” like Mr. Camping was saying; it was a matter of right or wrong. That was when I finally understood that date setting was wrong.

On Sunday morning, May 10, 1996, Mr. Camping announced that any opposition to the idea of figuring out the timing of the Lord’s return would not be tolerated. He canceled the Friday night bible study. I took that announcement very personally. It meant that I could not openly disagree with Mr. Camping. It meant that I could only continue going to church if I remained silent on the issue. That morning I knew that I was never going to attend RBC again – I had no desire to.

The fact is Mr. Camping caused a major division in the church because his date setting doctrine was contrary to the doctrine of Christ. “mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.” (Romans 16:17) Date setting is contrary to the doctrine of Christ. “But of that day and hour knoweth no man” (Matthew 24:36).

Daniel 12:
2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
Some to everlasting life,
Some to shame and everlasting contempt.

We clearly read that unsaved people will awake, and experience shame and EVERLASTING CONTEMPT. This is where Mr Camping gets his heresy that their “bones will be shamed”.

John 5:
28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation

Notice again that it says that ALL in the graves will HEAR HIS VOICE. How can someone who is dead HEAR? Mr Camping teaches that people remain dead, the BIBLE teaches that unsaved people are resurrected, come back to life and are conscious, and are judged.

Matthew 12:
36 But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment.

Again, how can someone give account of anything if they are dead and unconscious?

The idea of unsaved people remaining dead and uncounscious for the resurrection, and shamed for 5 months, is a stange doctrine and a heresy from the pit of hell and satan.

However we must not judge anyone and be like Mr Camping and say anyone is unsaved. We can believe in a lot of wrong doctrines and still be saved. I used to believe in some wrong doctrines, and I already knew I was saved, and had God’s Spirit within me.

God Bless,
Jim B.

Why Should I Believe in Hell?
DH190
Hank Hanegraaff

This article first appeared in the Ask Hank column of the Christian Research Journal, volume 27, number 1 (2004). For further information or to subscribe to the Christian Research Journal go to: http://www.equip.org

“Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt” (Dan. 12:2 niv).

The horrors of hell are such that they cause us instinctively to recoil in disbelief and doubt; yet, there are compelling reasons that should cause us to erase such doubt from our minds. First, Christ, the Creator of the cosmos, clearly communicated hell’s irrevocable reality. In fact, He spent more time talking about hell than He did about heaven. In the Sermon on the Mount (Matt. 5–7), He explicitly warned His followers more than a half-dozen times about the dangers that lead to hell. In the Olivet Discourse (Matt. 24–25), He repeatedly told His followers of the judgment to come. In His famous story of the Rich Man and Lazarus (Luke 16), He graphically portrayed the finality of eternal torment in hell.

Furthermore, the concept of choice demands that we believe in hell. Without hell, there is no choice. Without choice, heaven would not be heaven; heaven would be hell. The righteous would inherit a counterfeit heaven, and the unrighteous would be incarcerated in heaven against their wills, which would be a torture worse than hell. Imagine spending a lifetime voluntarily distanced from God only to find yourself involuntarily dragged into His loving presence for all eternity. The alternative to hell would be worse than hell itself in that humans made in the image of God would be stripped of freedom and forced to worship God against their will.

Finally, common sense regarding justice dictates that there must be a hell. Without hell, the wrongs of Hitler’s Holocaust would never be righted. Justice would be impugned if, after slaughtering six million Jews, Hitler merely died in the arms of his mistress with no eternal consequences. The ancients knew better than to think such a thing. David knew that it might seem for a time as though the wicked prosper despite their evil deeds, but in the end justice will be served. We may wish to think that no one will go to hell, but common sense regarding justice precludes that possibility.

Is Annihilationism Biblical?

If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, he, too, will drink of the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name. (Rev. 14:9–11 niv)

Just as universalism (i.e., everyone will be saved) is the rage in liberal Christian circles, so, too, annihilationism (i.e., God will annihilate unbelievers) is gaining momentum in conservative Christian circles. The question, of course, is whether annihilationism is biblical.

First, common sense tells us that a God of love and justice does not arbitrarily annihilate a portion of the crowning jewels of His creation. He graciously provides everyone the freedom to choose between redemption and rebellion. It would be a horrific evil to think that God would create people with freedom of choice and then annihilate them because of their choices.

Furthermore, common sense also leads us to the conclusion that nonexistence is not better than existence since nonexistence is nothing at all. It is also crucial to recognize that not all existence in hell will be equal. We may safely conclude that Hitler’s torment in hell will greatly exceed the torment experienced by a garden-variety pagan. God is perfectly just, and each person who spurns His grace will suffer exactly what he or she deserves (see Luke 12:47–48; cf. Prov. 24:12; Matt. 16:27; Col. 3:25; Rev. 20:11–15).

Finally, humans are fashioned in the very image of God (Gen. 1:27); therefore, to eliminate them would do violence to His nature. The alternative to annihilation is quarantine. That is precisely what hell is.

For further study, see Robert A. Peterson, Hell on Trial: The Case for Eternal Punishment (Phillipsburg, NJ: Presbyterian and Reformed Press, 1995).

Mat 25:46 you posted very clearly reveals the Law of Eternal Life vs. The Law of Eternal Death. Both are eternal physical, bodily, and conscious realities.

As you and I and others have been maintaining in discussion all along, there is no “annihilation”, it is a deception, it is one of several instruments of the Devil’s tool box.

If someone is “dead and unconscious” and/or they “cease to exist” like Mr. Camping claims through his twisting doctrine, then the words God uses in the scriptures you quoted are a misapplication, and we know that that is NOT the case.

So either Mr. Camping is being DISHONEST OR ILLITERATE, or God is being DISHONEST OR ILLITERATE. I’ll bank on Mr. Camping being dishonest or illiterate, and it’s absolutely amazing how someone can look at the words being used in scriptures verses like the ones you quoted above and come up with something completely different than what is being said.

Another thing Camping is famous for is saying that the Bible intreprets itself, and that a student of the bible must examine all scriptures on a particular topic or doctrine to “discern Truth.” This is correct. However, Camping does NOT do this himself, in fact, he selectively disregards scriptures that are very clearly central to a specific doctrine, then goes to obscured or Old Testament verses (types and shadows of The Truth) in an attempt to bring greater clarity on New Testament verses (the Truth in full view view) which is a fatal violation of biblical hermeneutics. Then on top of it all, he assigns an allegorical definition which essentially REDIRECTS the original intended meaning, so here’s what Camping style interpretation produces:

Camping quote:
“everlasting punishment” means that the unsaved person doesn’t exist anymore throughout all eternity, that is their punishment, they cease to exist. They will never partake of God’s Eternal Kindgom.”

This is one of Camping’s famous quotes, and by this, it shows that he does NOT discern the Law of Eternal Death (i.e. eternal seperation from God), nor the doctrine of the resurrection of the unsaved who will face the Great White Throne Judgement in the future where the Law of Eternal Death will be commuted upon them in their unsaved condition, after which time, they will immediately be cast ALIVE into the Lake of Fire where the beast and false prophet are, and shall be tourmented day and night, forever and ever. Notice how the scripture mentions “CAST ALIVE” into the the Lake of Fire……How are these unsaved people suddently seen here ALIVE??..the resurrection of the unsaved for the purpose of facting The Second Death Judgement, where they will be eternally seperated from God, which is the result of a choice that they made. Camping says that the unsaved’s body only will be shot out of the grave like a cannon and put out on the ground by God, and that this is the unsaved’s person shame, then they will disappear when the world is consumed by fire along with all the rest of the unbelieveing world, and all will cease to exist. This is a DRAMATIC heresy on Camping’s part. It’s absolutely DISHONEST AND RIDICULOUS.

Let me give another example of Camping style misintrepretation: For example if you wrote a letter to me and mention in that you had a “bad day”, if I were applying Camping style interpretation, I would walk away with, “Jim said in a previous letter that he had a good day, and that he did not like rain, so therefore when he said in this current letter that he had a bad day, that meant that it was a rainy day.” This is EXACTLY what Mr. Camping does, and what he has done with annihilation is that he does not comprehend the doctrine of the Second Death, nor the Law of Eternal Death, which of course means that he does not have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit to show him these kinds of things.

Mr. Camping (and all of his followers) needs to be Born Again. They need to receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit of God.